Talk:Bob Dylan

wonderfull SPON.de article (in German)

Nice article about a very, very loyal long-term fan in (former Eastern) Germany: https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/bob-dylan-in-oel-wie-das-gemaelde-aufs-konzert-in-ost-berlin-kam-a-52cdc5fa-eef8-4e9f-bced-379d61a1075a

Dishonesty -- Dylan can't live outside the law

In the book, The Double Life of Bob Dylan: A Restless Hungry Feeling, 1941-1966, author Clinton Heylin notes that the first time Dylan’s name appeared in print relative to his music career was in the August 6, 1961 New York Mirror where Pete Karman reported as follows, “Bob Dylan of Gallup, New Mexico played the guitar and harmonica…”

In those early days, somewhat George Santos-style, Dylan, apparently seeking to burnish his folksinger resume, claimed to have ridden the rails hobo style, worked in a carnival, and so forth.

But he was outed in the November 4, 1963, issue of Newsweek which set the record straight regarding his Hibbing, MN middle-class origins.

One would have thought that would have taught him a lesson, but no.

For instance, concerning his Chronicles: Volume One book of 2004, Dylan biographer Clinton Heylin has shown skepticism concerning the factualness of the book: "Jesus Christ, as far as I can tell almost everything in the Oh Mercy section of Chronicles is a work of fiction. I enjoy Chronicles as a work of literature, but it has a[s] much basis in reality as Masked And Anonymous…”

When he released his song, “Murder Most Foul,” he issued this statement:

“Greetings to my fans and followers with gratitude for all your support and loyalty across the years. This is an unreleased song we recorded a while back that you might find interesting. Stay safe, stay observant and may God be with you. Bob Dylan, March 27, 2020”

But Fiona Apple, who played piano on the song, later confirmed that the song had in fact been recorded only one month previously, in February 2020.

In his January 6, 2023 weekly column on CounterPunch, Jeffrey St. Clair notes, "From his recent interview with the Wall Street Journal, it sounds like Dylan’s gone back to Jesus: 'I’m a religious person. I read the scriptures a lot, meditate and pray, light candles in church. I believe in damnation and salvation, as well as predestination. The Five Books of Moses, Pauline Epistles, Invocation of the Saints, all of it.'”

Maybe that’s true, but given that in so many interviews Bob adopts a putting-one-on tone, why should one believe that?

Especially when compared with this previous statement of his from the article:

In 1997, he told David Gates of Newsweek:

   "Here's the thing with me and the religious thing. This is the flat-out truth: I find the religiosity and philosophy in the music. I don't find it anywhere else. Songs like "Let Me Rest on a Peaceful Mountain" or "I Saw the Light"—that's my religion. I don't adhere to rabbis, preachers, evangelists, all of that. I've learned more from the songs than I've learned from any of this kind of entity. The songs are my lexicon. I believe the songs." M.mk (talk) 14:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

What changes are you recommending for the article? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If I think of how this awkward info on the guy can be unawkwardly "woven in," I'll do that and half expect some Dylan worshipper to take it down.

Anyone else is welcome to do this.

I wanted the record to show, at least on the talk tab, this bad habit of Dylan's. M.mk (talk) 15:41, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that anything Dylan has said is "illegal", he hasn't said these statements in a court, but I've seen it said many times that what he says about his life is often opaque or outright incorrect. Is there still something in the article about this? It seems to me there might have been at one time. If there isn't, it should probably be mentioned as adding difficulties for accurate biographies of him.Brianyoumans (talk) 20:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I've added material noting that Chronicles borrows from many sources including Time magazine and the novels of Jack London. Also Heylin's comment in his 2023 biography that Chronicles is factually inaccurate. Mick gold (talk) 11:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that.

"Thinking out loud":

Perhaps a separate page listing out examples of Dylan in this regard.

For instance, there is a separate page entitled, "Bob Dylan and the Band 1974 Tour."

With a separate page, this ongoing character flaw of his comes into "focus" compared to examples appearing hither and thither in his page.

I wonder if anyone who knew him, associates or other artists, ever commented on this.

Keith Richards, for instance, can be pretty blunt in his criticisms of other artists.

What I compiled above, however, might be seen as a mere stub page unless there are further examples.

Plus, what title would such a page have?

"Bob Dylan, Big Fat Liar," probably won't do. M.mk (talk) 18:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Not a good idea, imho. Mick gold (talk) 23:29, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Really, no, we don't need that. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 01:28, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, here's the link to the 1963 Newsweek outing for someone to add to that part of his life with the superscript for footnote, etc.:

https://www.newsweek.com/bob-dylans-75th-birthday-revisit-our-infamous-1963-profile-462801 M.mk (talk) 01:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

For me, the most significant outcome of Andrea Svedberg's 1963 Newsweek hack attack was that it inspired Dylan to write "Restless Farewell" on the The Times They Are a-Changin' album. (see p. 215 of Shelton's 1986 biography No Direction Home.) Here we are, 61 years later, Dylan is the most famous song writer of his generation and a Nobel Prize winner. "Oh a false clock tries to tick out my time/ To disgrace, distract, and bother me/ And the dirt of gossip blows into my face/ And the dust of rumors covers me/…So I’ll make my stand/ And remain as I am/ and bid farewell and not give a damn"

I'll try to add that info, and the Svedberg/Newsweek cite, to the "Restless Farewell" article when I have a moment. Mick gold (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good, but the Newsweek article was dated, November 4, 1963 and Wikipedia has "Restless Farewell" recorded on October 31, 1963, tho, since, mags like Newsweek come out before their cover date, maybe he immediately wrote a song upon seeing their expose.

But regardless: "and not give a damn" -- at first he did. Maybe it was the Heylin Double Life book where I read it, but the Newsweek story had him lying low for a spell as a result of their story on him. M.mk (talk) 15:36, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe he immediately wrote and was able to record a song upon seeing the Newsweek expose, book studio time, round up producer Tom Wilson, and so forth. M.mk (talk) 15:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Dylan was always a self-mythologizer; this is hardly a surprise. He creates and recreates himself, kinda the same way his idol Woody Guthrie did. M.mk seems to think this is a shameful thing, something to be written up as a criticism or a controversy. I disagree; it's worth a comment or two, at best. "Liar"? That's pretty nasty (and blows right through BLP). "To live outside the law you must be honest" -- yeah, and I don't see anywhere Dylan "lived outside the law". --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:55, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh and by the way, magazines were and are indeed published a week to a month before the cover date. Here is the current The New Yorker cover, for example, dated a week from yesterday. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 16:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

By titling this thread the way I did, I was alluding to a line from "Absolutely Sweet Marie."

It's a really good thing one cannot find hagiographic pieces on Wikipedia.

I am thankful for that. M.mk (talk) 16:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

In Heylin's Double Life, after the brief Gallup, NM quote by Karman in the New York Mirror, Heylin's first, rather dramatic, remark is, "It starts with a lie." (emphasis added) This as opposed to Heylin calling it self-mythologizing, Dylan recreating himself, or such. M.mk (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

After the Preface, that is how Heylin opens his book. M.mk (talk) 17:09, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we should make it clear that in Chronicles and elsewhere, Dylan has frequently mythologized himself. OTOH... Dylan doesn't owe anyone the details of his life. Many people in show business are very close-mouthed about their past and private life. Some have created personas with back stories out of whole cloth, for various reasons. Some people talk a lot about their past, but people's memories of their past are frequently incorrect in various ways. Basically, I agree that it's a good point that he has told many tall tales about his past, that should be in the article (and Mick has been working on that), but I feel like you want us to make value judgements about Dylan, that he is a "liar", a bad person, for telling untruths. I'm not sure that's within our purview at Wikipedia. As long as the untruths are not told maliciously, I think to some extent it is just part of how many celebrities cope with or manage their fame and public image.Brianyoumans (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Point taken.

Dylan early established himself with songs like "Blowin' in the Wind," "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" and so forth (songs he later called finger-pointing songs, then saying he wasn't going to do those any more) as something like a truth-teller and this has "followed him around" to this very day whereby, for instance, even people like Robert Fripp would ask on a King Crimson forum several of years ago, "Would Dylan lie for money?" when making some point about integrity.

Well, in the case of Chronicles, for instance, yes, it seems so, Mr. Fripp. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Hopefully the outed other celebrities don't keep doing it.

"The truth is the most articulate thing you can say." --John Lydon M.mk (talk) 17:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

So write something, well sourced, backing your position, and see if you can get consensus for keeping it in the article. Your accusatory tone here doesn't indicate you'll do well at establishing the proper WP:NPOV; surprise us. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 17:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe I will, but I had two very brief things taken down within minutes re Mal Evans, the Beatles' assistant, based on the new book about him, so who wants to expend the effort when emotions run so high about "idols" and one's work then gets removed?

(See talk tabs for "Here, There and Everywhere" and "Sgt. Pepper" (song) where I describe my attempts.)

Incidentally, the "typical" celebrity doesn't have a truth-teller "millstone" around their neck like Mr. Dylan created for himself with his early songs though I still would prefer people not make up things about their past no matter who they are. I guess that's just me. M.mk (talk) 17:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Given that this is BOB DYLAN, I'm a little surprised that more people than three aren't weighing in -- or piling on me, heh.

But thanks for taking the time. M.mk (talk) 19:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

We've known for a long time not to use his Chronicles or anything else he's said or written as a WP:RS. That's all that really matters regarding his veracity. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"We've known for a long time not to use his Chronicles..."

Congratulations, since the average bloke plunking down $27 for the hardcover probably has no inkling of that cos there's nothing in the jacket copy nor a prefatory comment from Mr. Dylan on the liberties he takes.

The average bloke thinks he's gonna get something straight from the horse's mouth, but it's more like from the horse's ass.

As a result, Heylin says about it:

"He's not the first guy to write a biography that's a pack of lies..."

Note the L-word. M.mk (talk) 01:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

So under Rough and Rowdy Ways, concerning the info there for "Murder Most Foul," I added after the Dylan statement about the song:

"Fiona Apple, who played piano on the song, later revealed that the song had in fact been recorded only one month previously, in February 2020."

I tried to make the word "revealed" link to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_Most_Foul_(song)#Release

as a source for her statement, but then the word "revealed" would disappear behind a weird link thing. M.mk (talk) 16:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better to just copy the source from the song article? However, I'm not sure the article needs this at all, both when the song was recorded, and whether "a while" could be "a month"... That's a pretty nitpicky. "a while" is a pretty vague term. Frankly, given the length of the article, I might vote for removing both Dylan's message about the song and the bit about Fiona Apple saying when it was recorded.Brianyoumans (talk) 17:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Mick gold (talk) 00:02, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I put it in because:

Dylan issued a statement on his website and via social media on the day that the single premiered calling it "an unreleased song we recorded a while back that you might find interesting". This spurred speculation that the recording may have been years old and perhaps even an outtake from his 2012 album Tempest.

Such speculation is only natural given his vague word choice.

Length of the article: A single added sentence to clarify Mr. Dylan's impreciseness is too much to bear?

Yeah, that's nitpicky all right.

I'll be the first to admit I have not mastered the superscript/footnote thing.

Fiona's statement comes from here:

Pelly, Jenn (December 8, 2020). "Fiona Apple on How She Broke Free and Made the Album of the Year". Pitchfork. Retrieved February 10, 2021. M.mk (talk) 17:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Removing his message covers for him -- heh. M.mk (talk) 17:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I propose, in the section "Protest and Another Side"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan#Protest_and_Another_Side

After the paragraph that begins:

"By the end of 1963, Dylan felt manipulated and constrained by the folk and protest movements...."

The following about the 1963 Newsweek profile of Dylan:

In the November 4, 1963 issue of Newsweek, Dylan was profiled revealing that his colorful stories of his background such as working in a traveling carnival and where he hailed from were false, that his background was that he "grew up in a conventional home, and went to conventional schools" in Hibbing, Minnesota.

Indeed, biographer Clinton Heylin reports that the first time Dylan’s name appeared in print relative to his music career was in the August 6, 1961 New York Mirror where Pete Karman reported as follows, “Bob Dylan of Gallup, New Mexico played the guitar and harmonica…”

Biographer Robert Shelton reported that Dylan "exploded with anger" and went "underground" for weeks after reading the Newsweek piece.

Sources for footnoting (I am not at all experienced in those):

"Revisit Our Infamous 1963 Profile of Bob Dylan," https://www.newsweek.com/bob-dylans-75th-birthday-revisit-our-infamous-1963-profile-462801

Heylin, Clinton, The Double Life of Bob Dylan: A Restless Hungry Feeling, 1941-1966. Little, Brown & Co., 2021. ISBN: 9780316535212

[Shelton is quoted in the website introduction to the 1963 Newsweek piece: "According to Robert Shelton's biography No Direction Home..."] M.mk (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m not enthusiastic about M.mk’s proposed addition. I agree with what Brianyoumans wrote above, including the point that "Dylan doesn't owe anyone the details of his life." The article makes clear that he grew up in a middle class home in Hibbing and even commenced studies at the University of Minnesota. He dropped out after less than a year, travelled to New York to meet Woody Guthrie and then re-invented himself in the Greenwich Village folk scene. What catapulted Dylan to fame was not his fake biography but the quality of his songs. At the age of 22, "Blowin’ in the Wind" and "A Hard Rain’s a-Gonna Fall" earned him stardom at the Newport Folk Festival, the title "the voice of his generation" (which he loathed) and his songs were widely covered by other artists including Peter, Paul and Mary, Sonny and Cher and the Byrds who took his compositions into the pop charts. Fwiw the article notes: "At the University of Minnesota, Dylan told friends that Dillon was his mother's maiden name, which was untrue." Chronicles is not factually correct. And the Scorsese/Dylan Rolling Thunder film contains numerous fictitious elements.

As part of his lengthy musings on this subject M.mk proposed a Wikipedia article with the title "Bob Dylan, Big Fat Liar"; perhaps that was a joke but that still seems to be the thrust of M.mk’s latest contribution. I'll try to devise a sentence about the Newsweek article, but what is significant imho is the quality of Dylan’s work and how his continual musical and stylistic re-inventions propelled him towards the Nobel Prize in Literature. Mick gold (talk) 23:52, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure M.mk has the right wording, but Dylan creating this false past for himself, perhaps sort of an imitation of his hero Woody Guthrie, seems to be a fact of his very early career. It seems worthy of inclusion, especially since he seems to have continued to indulge in mythologizing himself at various times.Brianyoumans (talk) 01:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I’ve added something about the Newsweek profile of Dylan and “Restless Farewell”.

According to Heylin, the chronology is: 23 October 1963, Andrea Svedburg interviews Dylan, who dislikes the tone of her questions and storms out. (Svedburg’s article includes the false rumor that “Blowin’ In The Wind” was not written by Dylan but by a New Jersey High School student.) The article hits the news stands around 29 October. 31 October, Dylan records “Restless Farewell”. See Heylin, 2009, Revolution In The Air, The Songs of Bob Dylan: Volume One, pp. 170–172. Mick gold (talk) 14:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

"Dylan creating this false past for himself, perhaps sort of an imitation of his hero Woody Guthrie, seems to be a fact of his very early career. It seems worthy of inclusion, especially since he seems to have continued to indulge in mythologizing himself at various times..."

Yes, indeed. Thank you.

"M.mk proposed a Wikipedia article with the title 'Bob Dylan, Big Fat Liar'; perhaps that was a joke..."

Yes, essentially a joke.

A note: People are free to like the guy as I once did (and still respect much of his work), but his "self-reinventions" and other, to me, lies, have me no longer trust anything he has to say.

Go well, Bob. M.mk (talk) 15:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

One of ya may as well add the backstory to "Restless Farewell" to the stub of info about the song:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restless_Farewell M.mk (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, ran across this and can't resist (there really could be a Wikipedia article on Bob's dishonesty and it would be "never ending" -- heh):

[Rolling Stone:] If you had the chance to ask Dylan one question, what would it be? What would you want to hear him talk about in an honest way?

[Clinton Heylin:] In an honest way? If I could get him to answer honestly, I’d ask him something about either motorcycles or Child Ballads. Both of which fascinate me, both of which I have a similar passion to him for. [italics added]

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/bob-dylan-biographer-clinton-heylin-interview-double-life-book-1166784/ M.mk (talk) 19:33, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think that your continued use of the term "dishonest" is a violation of WP:BLP. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:33, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

On the mere talk tab?

SORRY!!(!)!

This wouldn't be an issue were it not for Bob's, er, habit in this regard. Choose your euphemism. "Self-reinvention," that's sweet.

Me and Heylin -- whose book publishers violate the stricture also. M.mk (talk) 01:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

As a result of discussion on this page, I've re-written the Restless Farewell article to try to give a bit more nuance and depth to the story of the Newsweek interview and how BD transformed the incident into the final song on his third album. As per Jpgordon and Brianyoumans I think repeated use of the terms "liar" and "dishonesty" are a misrepresentation of Dylan and a violation of WP:BLP. Mick gold (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with that. Reading over the article again (well, most of it, anyways) I think it gets across how Dylan is. He's brilliant, he tells truth, but he's also an unreliable narrator, especially of his own life. He's secretive and he's just seemingly odd at times. I don't think we're whitewashing him here. I think if we were going to call him "liar" I would want examples of how he had told malicious lies that hurt people. I don't see that. I see him spinning stories for his own sometimes obscure reasons.Brianyoumans (talk) 17:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

No. If we were going to call him "liar", we'd need reliable sources calling him this long before we even considered it, and we'd still be running afoul of WP:BLP. Now, are there instances of this "lying" where it actually has mattered in the least, other than frustrating occasional biographers and blurb writers? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 19:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, then, you're all agreed.

Open letter:

Dear Bob:

I am sorry for my reckless word choices herein.

I don't know what came over me.

As for telling the truth, why start now?

Best wishes,

Mark

P.S. Some "metaphysical" food for thought:

"...he who confuses you, confuses himself."

from Conversations with Seth, Vol. 2, Chapter 1 by Susan Watkins M.mk (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Can we switch the photo back?

The lead photo that was changed recently is awful. Can it be switched back to the previous one (or any other one that isn't this horrible)? KokiriEmerald (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

No one is "Forever Young." M.mk (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It would be good to find a more recent one that was a bit more flattering, I suppose. He looks kind of old and grumpy. On the other hand, maybe he *is* old and grumpy at this point. Brianyoumans (talk) 01:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Accident?

There is scepticism in some quarters that the motorcycle accident ever happened. It seems to have no support independent of Bob. They suggest he just wanted to get out of the tiresome commitments he had ahead of him. Burraron (talk) Burraron (talk) 10:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

If you look at the Tony Scherman American Heritage piece that is used as a source in our article, it seems like there is some question as to the severity of his injuries and the reason for his long convalescence, but it seems likely there was an accident and that he had injuries - he did seek medical care immediately afterwards, he was seen wearing a neck brace, he has told various stories about the incident but never that it didn't happen. It may well be that he used it as an excuse to step back, but that's mentioned in our article.Brianyoumans (talk) 15:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Concur with Brianyoumans. Dylan biographers agree with what Dylan himself wrote in his autobiography Chronicles: "I had been in a motorcycle accident and I'd been hurt, but I recovered. Truth was that I wanted to get out of the rat race." I don't think a single Dylan biographer writes it never happened. Mick gold (talk) 11:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Hebrew name

Any thoughts on using the phrase "Hebrew name:" instead of just "Hebrew:" before his Hebrew name. The way it is now makes it look like the Hebrew is just a translation/transliteration of his English name, which it is not. -KaJunl (talk) 18:48, 27 December 2024 (UTC

I suggest moving the Hebrew name to a a separate sentence, such as the following.

His Hebrew name is Shabtai Zisl ben Avraham (Hebrew: שבתאי זיסל בן אברהם).

‐   William Avery (talk) 21:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

William Avery OK, done. Mick gold (talk) 18:56, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Adapting the tunes and phrasing of older folk songs

The One I Left: I’ve restored the words "which adapted the tunes and phrasing of older folk songs" to the Lead, referring to "Girl From The North Country" and "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall". I think it’s important that the Lead mentions Dylan first made an impact with these songs (and also "Masters of War", "Blowin’ in the Wind", "With God On Our Side") by marrying new lyrics to traditional melodies and forms. Best, Mick gold (talk) 23:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if that mention is worth of the lead. Seems more appropriate to put in the body of the article.The One I Left (talk) 03:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Since the Lead serves as “a summary of the article’s most important contents”, BD’s talent for writing new lyrics to traditional tunes was surely crucial to the early impact he made with "Girl From The North Country", "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall", "Masters of War", "Blowin’ in the Wind", "With God On Our Side" and more. Mick gold (talk) 08:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree to disagree. I think it's worthy of mention within the article for sure, but mentioning it in the lead seems like puffery.The One I Left (talk) 20:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)